Comments On: SSA vs Pet Primates

This is completely untrue, SSA was founded 43 years ago to educate and help primate owners, so that their primate can receive quality care for its total life. Any one can raise a baby, thats the fun, easy part. But keeping that monkey healthy and happy for maybe 35-40 years is the hard part. The SSA tries to prepare people for the changes that take place as their monkey matures and its needs change. It may require a much larger cage, a companion, different enrichment items,etc. I am Lu hall and my husband, John, is the current president. We have java macaques, that are 9, 8 and 5. We've had squirrel monkeys that lived for over 25 years. The members of SSA have helped us thru' some rough times with our monkeys. If we have primates,how can you say SSA is against private ownership? If you don't want to be a member, fine, but why bash an organization? If you have questions about SSA, please contact me at joluhall@csj.net

User Host = jack-dialup-22-202.csj.net

I have had monkeys for over 20 years and I am very careful about what organizations I become involved with. I have not seen any of the attrosities done to primates by Wally Sweat, and maybe, Lu, you are not aware of his treatment of monkeys, but it is no secret! The old saying "you are judged by the company you keep" is foremost in my mind when SSA comes to my mind. I would not even want to know a person that would treat any animal as Wally has and if I am not mistaken, he is or was on your board? This says it all.
User Host = spider-tk083.proxy.aol.com

Actually, I don't believe that Wally Swett is on the SSA Board now. However, I'd be very interested to hear more about what you claim Wally has done to harm primates. Feel free to e-mail me if you, or anyone else, would like to share specifics.

Cheers,
Hope Walker
User Host = dialup73.waypt.com

Hope, tell us about all your experience as a "monkey mom"!
How did you become such an expert on dealing with captive non human primates???
Hope,Please do not play the "THICK HEAD" game with us!
You know, very well, all about Wally and thank God, so do many others!
I would like to know if any of the folks on the board, pull infants of the mother monk and sell them?
It is bad enough that rescued monks must live in zoos and in captivity, but to breed these beautiful, intelligent animals for this kind of life is so sad! All for the MONEY!
I am so confused by the philosopy of the SSA? Supported by the good, the bad and the pure UGLY! Stop abusing pimates in the name of the SSA.
User Host = spider-tr022.proxy.aol.com

Hope, tell us about all your experience as a "monkey mom"!
How did you become such an expert on dealing with captive non human primates???
Hope,Please do not play the "THICK HEAD" game with us!
You know, very well, all about Wally and thank God, so do many others!
I would like to know if any of the folks on the board, pull infants of the mother monk and sell them?
It is bad enough that rescued monks must live in zoos and in captivity, but to breed these beautiful, intelligent animals for this kind of life is so sad! All for the MONEY!
I am so confused by the philosopy of the SSA? Supported by the good, the bad and the pure UGLY! Stop abusing pimates in the name of the SSA.
User Host = spider-tr022.proxy.aol.com

Dear Faith,

You've asked several questions, all of which are so appallingly hostile and snide that it makes me wonder, yet again, what your agenda is.

You can presume that I "...You know, very well, all about Wally...." but you would be wrong. I don't give much weight to idle gossip. If you know something, and have solid proof, I am sure that many people would be interested to hear it. In the mean time you're only making yourself look like a bitter, angry monkey owner.

As I said before, I am not affiliated with the SSA nor does our project plan to breed rescued animals. However, there is something to be said for the psychological wellbeing of animals that live in -family- groups, and I would not and do not pass judgement on those that do allow or have allowed their animals to breed. That doesn't mean I support the horrific trade in infant primates, nor does it mean (by a long stretch I promise you) that I agree with the programs and practices of other primate sanctuaries.

I'm not going to waste a bunch of time talking about my background. It isn't relevant to these discussions. If we were talking about murder, would I have to have killed someone to be considered an "expert". Animal ownership does not immediately give anyone, you or I, instant access to the best care, quality of life or expertise. Those things must be sought out Faith, and all too often exotic owners refuse to do so, thinking that they know best. Sadly, it is the wildlife that pays for such arrogance.

Regards,
Hope Walker
The Primate Conservation & Welfare Society

User Host = dialup94.waypt.com

Hope,
Sorry to be snide and hostile. All of us will be held accountable for our actions, someday. I wish you could influence the AR folks to focus on the research centers that torture primates and the boring, filty zoos that offer no stimulation to the incredible primates. If you have any power with these people,STOP them from pulling Cookie from Her Mom and Dad, for she will die if she is relocated! Seems like every thing is motivated by money? When you hear gossip, keep in mind, there is a liitle bit or much truth to what you hear. Faith
User Host = spider-tr061.proxy.aol.com

Dear Faith,

I realize that this is a passionate issue for everyone and I appreciate your apology.

I'm sorry, but respectfully, I completely disagree with you regarding Cookie. There is no evidence that this animal will die if shifted to a new location - in fact, there is ample evidence that primates do very well, if in the right hands, when introduced to conspecifics. The facility where she will go is accredited, has highly trained and experienced staff, and has other primates like Cookie. Frankly, I can't think of a better place for her, given her current situation.

There are many organizations that work on the lab research end of primate welfare - PCWS is certainly in support of those efforts and has plans to offer sanctuary to many primates that are the sad "leftovers" of lab research. We've also been very outspoken about the use of non-human primates in (so called) medical research, and certainly have no plans to stop doing that.

I appreciate that you may have some concerns about Primarily Primates. Have you ever gone to Wally and asked him about them? I don't know Wally well, although I have met him and spoken with him on the phone several times. Given the little bit I do know about him, he doesn't seem to be disinterested in concerns that the general public may have.

And you are right, there usually is a grain of truth to idle gossip. The trouble is Faith, who is to say what is or isn't true. In my personal view, it is always better (and usually more enlightening) to go to the source if you have an issue. Of course, you may not get an answer, but it is usually a good place to start.

Best wishes,
Hope Walker
PCWS
User Host = dialup96.waypt.com

I have to agree with Hope regarding Cookie. I have been rescuing and placing monkeys with responsible people for almost 10 years now. I have taken in a few monkeys that were entirely hand raised who became agressive or unwanted for whatever reason and placed them with others of their own species and they thrived after the initial adjustment. I just placed a hand raised java macaque with a woman who has a male for her in a wonderful large enclosure. I am sure she will be more than fine. I think more people are worried about the human family than they are about the animal in question. I sincerely hope that is not the case.

Elizabeth
User Host = atlantis.onlinedirectinc.com

Beth, Why do you say Cookie is better off out of that home? Are they abusing Cookie? I do not understand? There was a time when I was forced to be separated from my only monk and she was near death when I got her back! If these people are bonded to Cookie, there is a very good chance she will go into a state of depression and die! Hope, you need to know that a mnkey bonds to it's human mom as no other bond I have known. They just stop eating and die! This is most prevalent if the monkey is raised as an "ONLY MONKEY"! Faith
User Host = spider-wo084.proxy.aol.com

Dear Faith,

There is adequate evidence to show that Cookie is not feed, housed or otherwise cared for properly. And given the accurate information available to primate owners today, there is no excuse for less than adequate care.

I do not believe, nor do I believe there is adequate evidence to demonstrate, that all monkeys will die if seperated from their owners. With proper introductions, with proper care and appropriate support most introductions are successful and the primates end up happy and well adjusted. Ivan is a good case study, as is Gilligan.

If your monkey was upset and did not do well, I would look to how the seperation took place. I would most certainly not make the leap to suggest that -all- monkeys suffer when shifted. Case in point: Gilligan, our most recent rescue, lived as a singly housed pet for ten years. He was moved to Mindy's Memory, and as far as I am aware, is doing well and was never depressed at all. Ivan lived at the B&I for over twenty years. His owners used your excuse as a reason for refusing to release him to Woodland Park or ZooAtlanta. When he was finally released, he adjusted well at ZooAtlanta. The last time I saw Ivan, he was housed with two females and copulating. Hardly a gorilla who was shattered when removed from his owners.

And frankly Faith, your primate - any primate kept as a pet - should not live singly housed. These animals are social and have psychological needs you simply cannot offer them. If they suffer during transition, the owner is at fault for a. having the animal in the first place and b. for keeping it in social isolation for a lifetime.

As for the bond that primates have with their human caretakers - this is a forced bond. No primate that I know, when offered the chance to live with conspecifics, chooses to live with human beings fulltime. These animals are "pulled" (read stolen) from their mothers and forced into unnatural relationships with human beings.

I understand that you feel a profound sense of connection with primates - especially your "pets". I too feel deeply drawn to primates, hence my work. However, I don't feel the need to have ownership of my source of inspiration in order to enjoy it.

Finally, simply because a primate has been singly housed for a lifetime does not mean that that animal should continue to suffer in the hands of human beings, being kept as a pet. And in cases like Gilligan's, he would have had to have been destroyed had we not be able to locate a sanctuary as he was Herpes B positive.

Hope Walker
PCWS
User Host = dialup94.waypt.com

Hope, My monkey was a rescue monkey and she was in very bad shape at the time that I got her. She was pulled from her mother and abused by her ignorant owners. Perhaps this is why our bond was so intense. I have gone through so much to provide her with a happy stimulating life. I was able to get another abused monkey, so that she would not be alone. All the monkeys I currently have are from abusive backgrounds and it is a constant challange to keep them healthy and happy. It was very easy to keep 1 monkey happy. It is not natural for a monkey to be alone, but it is not natural for them to be abused either! If I had my way and the money, I would take them to their natural habitat and let them be free. Faith
User Host = spider-wg043.proxy.aol.com

Dear Faith,

Thank you for sharing some of the details of your primates. You see, even you agree that your primates are better of housed in social groups. You may believe that your primate was content to be singly housed, but I have little doubt that she was simply satisfied - hardly content.

You, and many others, have repeatedly made reference to releasing primates into the wild. In case you too have been given the misguided (and false) information that I believe all primates should be returned to the wild, let me set you straight. I have never, ever stated any such thing.

I do believe, however, that reintroduction is possible and that it is a tool to be used to help species which are endangered. I don't believe that most pet primates are decent canidates for reintroduction. However, that doesn't mean that I support keeping primates in parrot cages and feeding them cake and ice cream. That doesn't mean that I believe that primates should be singly housed either. And finally, that doesn't mean I believe primates should be dressed up as pseudo humans and carried around in public (or to SSA meetings for that matter).

The irony of discussions like these is that, when the chips are down, we really don't differ on too much. So again, I would urge you to beware of rumor. A recent rumor about our work is that we 'raid' people who own primates and steal their monkeys. Of course, any rational person would laugh at such a completely ridiculous statement. But, the idle gossip continues.

Best,
Hope Walker
PCWS
www.primates-online.com
User Host = dialup81.waypt.com

Hope, Can domesticated primates be returned to the wild, or even adapt to a zoo? My monkey was taken from me and forced to live in a zoo for 4 months. She pulled much of her hair out. She would only eat when I was there, which was 2x a day. She was devastated. She wanted nothing to do with the other primates she was with. She only wanted me! She never adjusted to "preferring" to be with primates. Look at the situation with Koko and Penny. Perhaps these are exceptions to the rule. I really believe it depends on the individual situation. The idea of keeping a monkey in a parrot cage is horrid! The idea of caging is detrimental to their health. So odviously the larger the cage, the less stress. It is my understanding that most zoos do not want domesticated primates? I trained my girl eliminate a a certain area (no need for diapers) and she did not need to wear clothes, as we lived in a tropical region. I know there are some outrageous home situations and monkeys are abused. There are far more monkeys being used for reseach or kept in the unstimulating confinement of zoos! It seems like that would be the focus of true animal lovers! Breeding primates for the pet trade is another sad scenerio! Faith
User Host = spider-wo063.proxy.aol.com

Dear Faith,

You've asked some very interesting questions.

First, I do not believe there is any such thing as a 'domesticated' primate. There are, however, primates that are not wild (i.e. not born in the wild and/or taken from their mothers so that they have a harder time adapting to wild behaviors and/or those that have been singly housed for so long that they struggle in relating to their own species). These unfortunate animals are really pseudo-monkeys - neither wild or domesticated. Domestication takes time - more time, more generations, than your pets have had. The term 'domesticated monkey' was coined by pet owners who are in search of terminology that validates their ownership of these animals.

I would be very interested to know which 'zoo' your monkey lived at - as I said before, with the proper staff, housing and experience this should not be and usually isn't a difficult transfer over the longterm. Of course, you are correct that each animal is different, however I have complete faith in the keepers at the zoo where Cookie will go, and I am certain she will do fine.

Although I definately agree that by volume, more primates are held in research facilities or sub-standard zoos, that fact in no way precludes any of us from having a real and serious concern for the majority of primates kept in 'pet' homes. If this wasn't a serious problem then places like Primarily Primates would not have over 500 ex-pet animals, including hundreds of ex-pet primates (those numbers were given to me by Wally Swett last weekend). We would not have received over 200 requests for placement this year (we don't have land yet). Nor, might I add, would the majority of primate sanctuaries in the United States be full or almost full. This is a serious issue, and we fully intend to remain deeply involved.

Sincerely,
Hope Walker
The Primate Conservation & Welfare Society
www.primates-online.com
User Host = dialup81.waypt.com

Hope, I have grave concerns over the care provided in sanctuary's.
I do not believe anyone can but a blanket on any one situation. It takes much time and money to provide quality care to primates. It akes a compasion and love, that is beyond the "normal human capacity". From what I read, there are quite a few successful, stimulating and happy homes. I so not believe in breeding primates for sale and I find the "re-sale" of a monkey, that does not add up to what the adopted monkey parent's expectations, totally unexceptable. I compare this to selling children. I know it is a very lucrative business, and this is what drives too many "Santuarys"
Now, Wally houses over 500 primates? are you saying that this would be a better way for a primate to live, than living in a private home where the subhuman primate is "one of a few"? I treat my monkeys better than I treat any of the humans in my life! They come first and the number of primates I raise will not affect my income. I realixe the bond I share is very unique, to fewer and fewer people involed in the care of primates. Once there is a need to hires help to provide care to the animals, who knows what kind of "twisted minds" get into the act? These animals cannot talk and tell us who does what, to them!
User Host = spider-wg054.proxy.aol.com

Is it better for an unwanted primate to be imprisioned in a sancturay then to be Dead? Check out the history of many of the so called "Sanctuary". Jail and sitting staring at the other poor animals. Check out some of the animals in private homes. I know quite a feww "incredible momkey moms and the animals do not live a "natural " life but their presence has no baring on the money coming to the facility. God forbid, 500 primates, living in cells! What do these animals do all day every day? Breeding and sale of any primate should be against the Federal law. How many SSA people breed? Gotta go again, monkeys need me! Faith
User Host = spider-tj063.proxy.aol.com

Dear Faith,

<Now, Wally houses over 500 primates? are you saying that this would be a better way for a primate to live, than living in a private home where the subhuman primate is "one of a few"?>

Not necessarily, no. However, keeping many species of monkey singly housed is, in my opinion, inhumane. These animals live in large (often huge) family groups, and keeping one or two together is often not enough. Sometimes it is necessary, but more often than not it isn't. Hence, the suggestion that keeping several dozen primates in a large, species appropriate space verses keeping one or two as pets isn't an equal situation in my view. I told you before that I am unwilling to comment on _how_ Wally Swett keeps primates at his facility as I have not had the pleasure of a visit. I am not saying that every pet situation is poor -- simply that most of them are because the owners have bizarre views about care, feeding and housing.

<Is it better for an unwanted primate to be imprisioned in a sancturay then to be Dead?>

Another interesting question Faith. Truthfully I haven't given this a great deal of thought, since our efforts are to provide the very best home we can. Do you really believe that Gilligan was better off dead then at a sanctuary? I don't. I've watched as a monkey who was deeply depressed and thin has gained weight, and become a very social, outgoing delight at his new facility. I couldn't be happier for him if I tried.

We've pushed back the timeline on our own project, so that we're certain to find appropriate land. However, I do realize that many (so-called) sanctuaries are more interested in a larger paycheck for the Director than they are in animal care. It is unfortunate that there are as many poor situations in sanctuaries as there are in pet homes.

And I do agree that pet owners and sanctuary managers should be coming together to discuss these issues. Last year I did offer to put together some kind of meeting where we could all sit down and discuss these problems, but there were very few takers. Certainly we haven't given up. We hope that pet owners will visit our facility (when it is completed) and be willing to dialogue about their needs and concerns.

Regards,
Hope Walker
The Primate Conservation & Welfare Society
www.primates-online.com

User Host = dialup89.waypt.com

Hope, how is it that your so full of advice and comments about how Cookie was treated. Your for Cookie being taken away from her human parents but you don't want to comment about Wally Swett because you say you haven't had the pleasure of a visit there. Did you visit Cookie in her home or did you just go by hear say? If you did visit because you were concerned why haven't you visited Wally when you heard people comment on this website about his treatment? It sounds to me that you only hear and see what you want to believe.
User Host = 6532139hfc207.tampabay.rr.com

Apologies for taking so long to respond to you anon. I rarely visit this bulletin board, as evidenced by the fact that I only just today read your message.

I have read statements by the owners in which they claim that ice cream and cake was fed to Cookie. Hence, I do not need to go and visit. Ice cream and cake are not appropriate, and the owners are willing to admit it.

If you would like to provide us with some concrete evidence about the mistreatment of any primate, you can be assured that we will listen, and whenever appropriate, take action. We do _not_ believe that primate sanctuaries should be exempt from investigation. However, I cannot comment on the care that the primates at Primarily Primates receive because I have never been there (nor has any of our Board) and I have never seen any concrete evidence of neglect or abuse.

I hope that helps to clarify the difference.

Regards,
Hope Walker
Executive Director
The Primate Conservation & Welfare Society
www.primates-online.com

User Host = dialup20615932117.waypt.com

i would like to own ship it please to Alexanne M Bye at 15128 Knowles
RD SE Tenino,WA 98589
User Host = 1cust68.tnt1.olympia.wa.da.uu.net

i would like to own ship it please to Alexanne M Bye at 15128 Knowles
RD SE Tenino,WA 98589 a baby spider monkey.Remember ship it to me.
thanks
User Host = 1cust68.tnt1.olympia.wa.da.uu.net