Comments On: SSA-Debate on Pet primate issues

From: truthteller on 08/27/00
You stated the SSA doesn't work against monkey owners or Cookie. Really?????? You forgot to answer WHY your organization openly supports IPPL & Shirley on your own website? Funny cause Shirly & IPPL is the organization that is claiming Cookie should be taken from their owner in their "expert" testimony. Why would the SSA support/donate anything to an organization like the IPPL that works against monkey owners and openly tries to take a monkey from it's owner? I would love to hear the excuse for this one. I am sure you will dance around the truth. You can't play both sides of the fence as an organization - either you are for pet primate ownership or against it.
User Host = spider-wl061.proxy.aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: truthteller on 08/28/00
By the way Mr. President, why are your by-laws not published on your website or sent with membership material? I am sure your legal advisor explained that as a non-profit organization you MUST provide all of your membership with a copy of the by-laws and list them on any public forum in which you openly solicit your organization like your website. It would be terrible to jeopardize your non-profit status for such a simple oversite. What is the SSA hiding by not publicly noting their by-laws?
User Host = spider-wl061.proxy.aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: on 08/29/00
Because most of the "BIGWIGS" in SSA believe only they should own primates. Only they are good enough, we are not worthy!
User Host = dialup048dyn.aginet.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: on 08/29/00
What else is new? SSA is in bed with PETA, IPPL. Friends like these who needs enemies?

User Host = spider-tl073.proxy.aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Barbara Parker on 08/29/00
I am hopeful that everyone reading this bulletin board topic realizes that any coward can post lies and half truths on this site anonymously. Why is it that truthteller and User Host = dialup048dyn.aginet.com do not sign their posts and provide their email address so that others could respond to their accusations?

As for non-profit organizations being required to "provide all of your membership with a copy of the by-laws and list them on any public forum in which you openly solicit your organization like your website." I'm not sure where they got that information, but when I searched several well know non-profit organizations' websites I was unable to find any by-laws. If the SSA is in violation of some requirement, so are the American Red Cross, the American Cancer Society and many others. I don't ever recall seeing a copy of any organization's by-laws included in any of the countless televison ads for major non profit orgs. What forum could be more public?

If anyone would like more information about the Simian Society of America you can visit:
<a href"http://www.simiansociety.org"> or email me privately <bparker@midgard.org> I proudly stand behind the SSA and all of the marvelous monkey people who work so hard to provide the best life possible for the primates in their care.

Barbara Parker
User Host =

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: truthteller on 08/29/00
Hey Barbara how do you know what the American Red Cross's membership has? Do you know if they got copies of their bylaws upon membership? Stop running your big mouth and butt off and call an attorney in the state the SSA is registered and ASK if EVERY member should get a copy of the bylaws if dues are charged. By the way, I don't have to sign my name or e-mail. The SSA people like you have a habit of threatening and harrassing those who speak the truth about the SSA and their affiliates like Wally Sweat the monkey killer that they support.
User Host = cache-rq04.proxy.aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: on 08/30/00
I don't think you need to have somebody's name and e-mail to respond on this public forum! This is for anyone who wants to spend their time reading it and so is your defense. I'm not totally against SSA, I used to be a member, but really I found that unless you have no idea, you really will not benefit much from the news letter. But that was five years ago, and who knows maybe things have changed. But, I do believe every monkey owner should own a copy of the monkey handbook, I give an order form with every baby. I just can't see why the price went from less than $20 incl. shipping to $35. If you're trying to help primates, let's make the $ on other things and make the book cheaper. Oh well, why can't we all realize we have the same goal, to continue freedom of making our own choices to own whatever we want and take care of it the way it should be!!!
User Host = dialup037dyn.aginet.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Barbara Parker on 08/30/00
The SSA has changed considerably in the last 5 years. Haven't we all? THere are new programs and new energy with more than 10 chapters added in the last 3 years. The SSA Primate Health Network, established at the 1998 SSA convention, is working hard to improve access to quality health care for all privately owned primates. The 2000 convention being held in Oklahoma City Sept 22-24 marks another leap forward for the SSA, the PHN and all members. The future looks bright for us all.

I commend you for providing copies of the SSA Primate Care Handbook to all new monk parents. That shows a level of care and concern not seen in enough breeders/brokers. The PCH is now supplemented quarterly by the Primate Care Journal, one of two publications that SSA members receive monthly. The other publication is The Simian, which has recently under gone a major face lift and has new co-editors who are doing a terrific job. The Simian is sent to members during the 8 months that the Primate Care Journal is not sent out. Like everything else, the cost of printing and postage forced an increase in the price of the PCH, but $35 seems like a very small investment for so much valueable information. I imagine more monkparents spend more than that on toys without blinking.

SSA by-laws are not secretive or withheld from any member. I received a copy when I joined SSA and I will be happy to forward requests for printed by-laws to the appropriate SSA board member. My email address is <bparker@midgard.org>

A very wise man once told me that no organization is all good or all
bad, and no organization is perfect. [We were talking about
governments at the time, they are organizations as well]
Organizations do not have hearts, souls or minds, so they are
incapable of the things many blame on "the organization." People
make up organizations and decide the policies that govern them.

Honorable people have 2 choices when they don't like the way an
organization operates; ignore it, or work within to promote change.

I chose to support SSA because I believe that together we can make a difference. With 43 years of history, 501 [c][3]non profit status, the leadership of so many long term primate owners and the enthusiasm of all the new members, SSA has the firm foundation that is needed to survive for the long haul.

You might want to take another look at the SSA. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.
User Host = 10.okc-max1.intcon.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robin on 08/30/00
I am giving notice that this whole topic will be removed within 24 hours.
This forum is not for this purpose, nor is its goals to post information that harms the private primate sector in any manner.
This forum will not be utlized to harm the efforts of the private sector nor will it be utilized to promote ANY information that may mis-lead people. This forum will not be utilized in this manner.

An example of the correct way to post this message would have been:

To find out specific information in our quest to save Cookie,and the many obstacles we have encountered including in our own support group. To obtain information about specific organizations set up to serve primate people in the private sector, email me at this address.
You could have stated who is on the board etc..... but you may NOT list specific personal names etc.......

Good luck to you in the future.
Robin Sloan
Monkey Maddness

User Host = ip200.tampa16.fl.pub-ip.psi.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: truthteller on 08/30/00
Robin please don't censor the BB in defense of the SSA. I did not use personal names, I merely responded to Mr. Hall's post on an earlier thread stating that he would be happy to answer questions on the SSA and saying to prove that the SSA is in support of the IPPL. Now that I have brought up the issue that they link to the IPPL website on their website (which is a form of support, why link to an organization that works against monkey owners), he disappears and doesn't respond. We all understand you are friends with alot of the these people and respect that, but many of us here love monkeys and don't want our rights taken away because the SSA is using monkey owners money to support organizations like IPPL, Primarily Primates, PETA.

Mr. Parker stated the SSA has been around 43 years. Ask yourself this, in 43 years why didn't a primate organization funded by PRIMATE OWNERS designed to help primate owners/lovers ever use the money to put together a universal statewide proposal to legalize primate ownership? Why in 43 years have they not spend ONE day trying to tackle state regulations - the thing that would protect all the people who support the SSA and their monkeys? Why is it NOW, 43 years later they are pretending to actually try and do something when the status of all our monkeys is now threatened and in many states, we have already lost our rights wi
User Host = ip165.tampa16.fl.pub-ip.psi.net

From: truthteller on 08/30/00
Robin please don't censor the BB in defense of the SSA. I did not use personal names, I merely responded to Mr. Hall's post on an earlier thread stating that he would be happy to answer questions on the SSA and saying to prove that the SSA is in support of the IPPL. Now that I have brought up the issue that they link to the IPPL website on their website (which is a form of support, why link to an organization that works against monkey owners), he disappears and doesn't respond. We all understand you are friends with alot of the these people and respect that, but many of us here love monkeys and don't want our rights taken away because the SSA is using monkey owners money to support organizations like IPPL, Primarily Primates, PETA.

Mr. Parker stated the SSA has been around 43 years. Ask yourself this, in 43 years why didn't a primate organization funded by PRIMATE OWNERS designed to help primate owners/lovers ever use the money to put together a universal statewide proposal to legalize primate ownership? Why in 43 years have they not spend ONE day trying to tackle state regulations - the thing that would protect all the people who support the SSA and their monkeys? Why is it NOW, 43 years later they are pretending to actually try and do something when the status of all our monkeys is now threatened and in many states, we have already lost our rights with no help from the SSA.

These are important things for people to know. Our money is helping the SSA take our rights away. Keep your $35 membership and do yourselves a favor, put it is a cookie jar every year and save up for your private attorney when the local city/state department comes to take your monkey away cause the SSA won't help. PLEASE don't support them financially, you are hurting your own monkeys. Open your eyes and think 43 YEARS and NOTHING to protect our monkeys and our rights!!!!!

Ask yourself shouldn't the people who pay $35 a year for membership have a say in what the club decideds, where their money goes to, how it is spent? Shouldn't you have a voting right on who is on the board and who should be removed? Ask yourself why Wally Sweat of Primarily Primates, a man who openly speaks against private monkey ownership, was allowed to be on the board and receive donations from the club from YOUR membership money? Save your money and put it towards your monkeys cause the SSA will not help when the walls come crashing in on your rights to own a primate.

Robin, again, please don't remove the thread. It is a truth that monkey people need to know and will only hurt monkey owners who think they are giving money to a good organization when in reality they are helping an organization who supports animal rights activists who work to take our monkeys away.
User Host = spider-wm045.proxy.aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: on 08/30/00
Truthteller,
Please email me privately. Monkeymom@monkeymaddness.com

Thanks,
Robin

User Host = ip223.tampa16.fl.pub-ip.psi.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: truthteller to ROBIN on 08/31/00
Robin I am sorry but I cannot privately e-mail you. I can't give out my e-mail address to anyone because, in the past, I have been harrassed, threatened and even had people from the SSA attempt to have my monkeys taken away from me for speaking the truth. I don't want to jeopardize the safety of my monkeys by revealing my e-mail and my identity to anyone who may associate with the SSA or people in the SSA. I am not saying I think you would do anything to hurt my monkeys, but I know that you are friends with alot of SSA people and I need to think of my monkeys safety first and foremost. They are my world and the thought of losing them because I made the mistake of revealing my identity is horrifying to me. I just think people need to be aware of where their money is going and at least stop contributing to an organization that has taken our primate ownership rights away by privately working against us with animal activist organizations. Please do not take offense to my decision not to e-mail and do not take it out on my post. Removing these posts will only hurt monkey owners by hiding the truth. One thing I have heard about you is that you care about primates and our right to primate ownership. PLEASE don't censor my post, in the end it will hurt what we all care about - our monkeys welfare & future.
User Host = spider-tp024.proxy.aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: truthteller to ROBIN on 08/31/00
Robin I am sorry but I cannot privately e-mail you. I can't give out my e-mail address to anyone because, in the past, I have been harrassed, threatened and even had people from the SSA attempt to have my monkeys taken away from me for speaking the truth. I don't want to jeopardize the safety of my monkeys by revealing my e-mail and my identity to anyone who may associate with the SSA or people in the SSA. I am not saying I think you would do anything to hurt my monkeys, but I know that you are friends with alot of SSA people and I need to think of my monkeys safety first and foremost. They are my world and the thought of losing them because I made the mistake of revealing my identity is horrifying to me. I just think people need to be aware of where their money is going and at least stop contributing to an organization that has taken our primate ownership rights away by privately working against us with animal activist organizations. Please do not take offense to my decision not to e-mail and do not take it out on my post. Removing these posts will only hurt monkey owners by hiding the truth. One thing I have heard about you is that you care about primates and our right to primate ownership. PLEASE don't censor my post, in the end it will hurt what we all care about - our monkeys welfare & future.
User Host = spider-tp024.proxy.aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Barbara Parker on 08/31/00
Just to set the record straight as the above posts have several incorrect facts. 1] Wally Sweat is no longer on
the SSA board of directors. 2] The links on the SSA website do not constitute support for any group. There
is a link to this website and Robin can confirm that monkey maddness does not receive any funds from SSA.
Each link directs primate owners to a site that has information on primate care. Take from it what you want
and ignore the rest. 3] SSA membership is $25/ year, not $35 and that barely covers the cost of producing
and mailng the monthly publications. 4] SSA members all over the US have been very involved in the
regulatory battles that have plagued primate owners lately. SSA is an all volunteer organization and does not
have paid staff that can dedicate all of their energy to any one activity. 5] SSA members DO have a say in
the way the organization is run and how SSA funds are allocated. Each chapter that has at least 10 members
may appoint a representative to the board. All actions of the SSA must first receive board approval.

User Host = 26.okc-max1.intcon.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: on 08/31/00
Barb are you saying that the SSA has never given money to Primarily Primates or the IPPL? Are you saying they have no affiliation with these organizations? Why link to organizations that fight against primate ownership? Why give them any publicity when they actively work against what the SSA claims to stand for? And WHY did the SSA raffle off a quilt at the primate picnic with all proceeds going to IPPL? That is a form of financial support, by giving donations to an organization that works against primate ownership. No one is saying that IPPL and other animal sanctuaries don't serve a purpose, what we are saying is that MONKEY OWNERS and organizations that claim to be FOR PRIVATE PRIMATE OWNERSHIP should not actively campaign, donate or publicize those who work against our goals. Also, there has been no universal proposal put together by the SSA for private primate ownership regulations. In 43 years, nothing has been done. Up until recently (last 10 years) there were very few, if not no states that made primate ownership illegal. This would have been the time to put regulations into effect. To prevent what is going on now and instead no one did nothing but sit by as CA, CT, NJ, NY, CO and so many other states started banning primate ownership. $25 times 300 members (rough guess)= $7,500 a year plus all the money off the book that is made. Now don't forget donations and grants received by the SSA (I know you try to hide this info) and multiply all tht by 43 years of being around and there is ALOT of money that could have been used to hire ONE attorney to draw up a universal statewide proposal. How many members of the SSA elected Wally Sweat to the board? Who elected him? What chapter? I was a member of the SSA for 5 years and I NEVER got one ballot, NEVER got a copy of the by-laws. I was a member of a local chapter also and NEVER were we told we could elect someone to the board. Perhaps because no one was given copies of the by-laws so they didn't know the power they had - very convenient. You can spin it any way you want Ms. Parker but 1 + 1 does not = 3 and things with the SSA don't add up. Why would they EVER have Wally Sweat on the board if they are for private primate ownership and he is against it? Why would they ever give money to such an organization? Why would they raffle a quilt off at the primate picnic for the IPPL and organization AGAINST private primate ownership? Why not use the money toward regulations and things that will HELP primate owners? Why don't you answer these questions?
User Host = spider-wl074.proxy.aol.com

User Host = ip165.tampa16.fl.pub-ip.psi.net

I think you all are acting like children in here.... WOW

Some of the things, some of you write...

How about just everyone worrying about their own primates and work on their own state laws.... and who cares what these other orginizations are doing and what they do with their $$$...

Worry about your monkey and your state...

If you ask me, most of these orginizations are just out to make money, just like most churches.

Love your monkey and work on your individual states OR MOVE to one that is very open to primates.. Like AZ or NV....

And foremost, some of you grow up and stop your bickering. Gee If a few of you spent more time fighting your state and not each other, you would be better off.... stop wasting your energy crying on here and get your butts out of your chairs, and go fight your city/state.

and i'll give my e mail address.... have nothing to hide, like some of you that i see here...

I dont think, that the monkey police are gonna knock on my door...
User Host = spider-wj031.proxy.aol.com

Hey Mark that would be a wonderful concept. Problem is that local city/state authorities don't take the small guy seriously BUT a non-profit organization that has been around for 43 years could really make changes and make city/state officials take notice. The point here was not to fight about what they aren't or are doing but to say they are using OUR money, YOUR money, MEMBERS money to work against private primate ownership. They work against us as primate owners and pretend to work for us. If we stop giving them OUR money, they will no longer exist and lose all their power. Do you really think that your average joe has the same power with his local state health board as PETA or IPPL or other organizations? I will always fight for my monkeys but UNITED we can make a difference and if we don't want to unite than PLEASE keep your $25 membership fee and save it for your own monkeys enrichment instead of giving it to the SSA. Giving it to the SSA is like giving it to PETA directly.
User Host = spider-wb054.proxy.aol.com

Maybe the SSA hasn't put together a universal proposal for private primate owners because the majority of the owners don't want to be regulated..period! They also don't want to be policed! But..oh my! there is a new organization that wants to do just that..make regulations for private primate owners. I believe it is being called UPPS...at least this week that is it's name, it's already changed it's name 3 times! Robin is the president too.
This sounds like a trashing job to me in order to sway primate owners away from SSA and to UPPS and it really stinks.
Yes, Robin, I think this thread should be deleted.

User Host = spider-tf021.proxy.aol.com

Munkyma evidently you have not done your homework on UPPS. UPPS has many members that are also members of SSA. UPPS is not a organization to take away from any other organization but to work with or pick up where the other left off.

My personal views are as follows:
Anyone with a primate should be well aware of the fact that the AR are trying to take away our rights to own primates.
In the states that there are NO regulations the new regulations sometimes turn out to completely outlaw any exotics in the private sector. They get them passed without anyone knowing the law is even being voted on. IF there is FAIR regulations already in force this would not be as easy.

In Florida for instance they have many rules and regulations for anyone wanting to own an exotic. This can be a pain but it also filters out many of the people that do not realize the life time commitment that is required to own a primate/exotic. They have to put in a certain amount of hours caring for whatever species they are wanting to own. They have to have a regulation cage all ready there and have it inspected before they can even have the animal on their property. Seems to me that this protects the animals.

It is because of the people that do not make the commitment and take the time to learn the proper care of what ever species they are wanting that so many are against exotics in the private sector. FAIR regulations are GOOD. If that is what it takes to be able to keep my primates I will do what ever.

There has to be a compromise somewhere. To completely outlaw anyone from owning exotics unless they are a zoo/sanctuary/lab is not fair to the responsible, committed people that privately own exotics. There are many many good owners that provide for their animals in every way possible.

Vernell

User Host = sl2.stl-online.net

Regulations are better than banning. It is the only way to protect us. States with no regulations are open to interpretation by officials and animal activist organizations and allow them to outright ban our primates. Regulations may also limit the amount of people who own exotics and help the exotics because the ignorant person who keeps their monks in a tiny parrot cage and thinks it is okay - will now have to have adequate housing, vet care, inspections, etc in order to legally owned their primate. It won't keep people from illegally owning them, but those of us who are in it for the long haul and for the welfare of our primates won't mind being regulated and inspected because we provide proper housing and care for our primates. Exotics of any species aren't for everyone, most people don't realize the committment and issues that go along with owning animals like primates or big cats, most don't have the time, money, space to devote to these animals and many times they suffer because of it. Even if there is only a SMALL percent of the population that should own an exotic, it is better to be regulated than be outrighted banned for those of us who are responsible owners. Last time I checked there were alot of SSA members (oldtimers) who didn't want regulations they told me they "don't think monkey should be brought out in public and if you keep them inside and no one knows you have them then you don't have to worry about getting reported". HELLO!!!! What about when people come over and see that primate or if you want to have an indoor/outdoor enclosure and have to worry about the neighbors or if you need to provide your primate with medical care and have to give the vet information and be scared of gettting reported - who wants to live that way??? Their prehistoric thinking is sickening. The biggest issue with the SSA is that they support organizations like PETA (openly on their brochures), IPPL, Primarily Primates and many more. These organizations openly campaign AGAINST private primate ownership and it just doesn't make sense to be an organization FOR primate ownership and work with those AGAINST primate ownership. Again, save your $25, don't be fooled by the SSA, and put your money towards your primates or a good lawyer to introduce FAIR regulations to your state/city. OR get a copy of Florida regulations, copy and tailor them for your city/state and have an attorney submit them to your local official for consideration. It can't hurt to try. Lord knows the SSA won't help, so help yourselves. The worst part is if a large, established organization like the SSA did a statewide proposal, health departments, Fish & Game, etc would have to stand up and take notice but they outright REFUSE to do so cause they will lose their credibility with organizations like PETA - and the little guys like us have no clout with these departments.
User Host = spider-tj072.proxy.aol.com

I have done my homework just because my opinion is different than yours does not mean I haven't.
First let me say that my opinions are just that, my opinions! There is no need or justification to be name calling on SSA for them. I'm not even a member of SSA!
Now, if you think going in and handing over a set of regulations is going to save your butts from the AR people, if you think that once you have these regulations in place that you are safe and don't have to look over your shoulders anymore then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. All you are doing is opening the door from them. You're still going to have to watch and keep your eyes open that they don't slip something through or add their own little amendments to your regulations.
Be ready, yes! If it looks like you are going to lose, have some regs of your own ready. Frankly, you already have in place a thing called the Constitution of the United States in place and you would do well to utilize that to it's fullest. We're already regulated out the butt, wouldn't you say? If you are going to fight, fight for the whole pie! You guys wanting to go around making regulations are more frightening and more dangerous than the AR people! That it is coming from our own is sickening!
I have an idea. Why don't those of you that want regulations like they have in Florida just move there! That a handful of you morons have the nerve to try to impose your beliefs and opinions on all the rest of us is egotisical at best.

User Host = spider-wi013.proxy.aol.com

It is going to take all the groups and all the people, SSA, UPPS,International Primate ASSociation, all the people working together to retain, or regain the right to private ownership. The sooner that all people start banning together the better. It is not about personal opinions, it is not about anything but having one common goal: that being owning primates in the private sector.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, thier choice of working with both,or all groups or some of them.

User Host = 64-31-229-153.pdq.net

For anyone interested here is the information on UPPS.

United Primate Protection Society

UPPS members support responsible monkey/ape ownership and the right to be fairly regulated in every state. Our members support all species of non-human primates. UPPS’s focus is NOT to take away from any other groups but to pick up where they leave off. Our goals are dedicated to the well-being of all non-human primates and to the education, support of their caretakers and care providers. UPPS endorses joining forces with other exotic legislative groups to protect private ownership.

GOALS:
*Supporting responsible private primate ownership (all species)
*Supporting other primate owners
*Educate others in the proper care of primates.
**Protecting our rights to keep primates as pets.
***Maintain a network for primates that need to be temporarily placed because of sickness, divorce etc…
*Work to incorporate laws that makes traveling with primates easier.
**Organize a Transport Network.
**Track and Log all legislative information for helping individuals in need of fighting a ban, etc.
*Group meetings for enrichment and education

MEMBERSHIP:
Membership into the national level of UPPS allows one the opportunity of joining a local chapter or forming a local chapter in their area. Membership will allow one the opportunity to draw from the resources and knowledge of a diverse respected group of primate people with vast experience. One will gain support and education within the network of UPPS. Joining UPPS one will benefit by obtaining valuable support in legislative issues as well as all other areas of primate ownership. Group meetings for education, enrichment, entertainment and support. Being a member of UPPS allows YOU the member to be proactive in all areas of UPPS. UPPS encourages members to be productive and involved within the group. UPPS is your group. YOU have input into all areas of UPPS. We the current members want your input, we encourage you to come and rally with us to protect our right to provide responsible ownership.

User Host = sl24.stl-online.net

If you think that no regulations is better than some regulations you are nuts. Having no regulations leaves the door WIDE OPEN for them to completely BAN exotic ownership, just like they did in NJ, CT, CO, CA and many more states. At least if there are some regulations in effect, you know exactly what your rights are - and it is YOUR job to monitor the regulations in your city/state and be actively involved if they decide to ammend them but with NO regulations, no licensing, no permits, there is no way for you to know when things start changing, no way to get grandfathered in if it is banned cause you can't prove ownership prior to a ban and if you can, there are no grandfather regulations/clause with NO regulations - DUH! That is the same thinking that the SSA has and the reason why 43 years later - we are fighting a LOSING battle. 43 years ago there were NO regulations and now we are BANNED - at least in Florida you still have a right to own an exotic unlike the states that were unregulated and all out BANNED as a result. I don't like having rules or people telling me what I can or can't own either, but I would much rather have the right to own my primates and have to abide by rules than have my rights completely taken away or live in fear of being reported by a neighbor, animal activist or fellow SSA member at any time and risk my primates being taken away from me. Regulation is the lesser of two evils. Please EDUCATE yourself before spewing ridiculous SSA mentality of living in hiding is better than living by rules.
User Host = spider-te074.proxy.aol.com

Hello, I am John Hall President of the SSA. I have set back and read all the comments on this subject. To begin ,there has been a lot of untrue statements made. I also want to say that after I send this post, there will not be any more debate on the subject from me. Truthteller, Dated 8/27/00 you have made statements that are not true. The links for IPPL and others are only that--links for the public to gain information.

8/28You stated the SSA does not have the by-laws on the website. There is no requirement to list the by-laws on websites. On 8/28/00 you said the SSA does not give the by-laws to the members. In march of the year 2000, there was copy of the by-laws in this issue of the Simian. All members received this issue.
On 8/30/00 you stated that you proved that the SSA supported IPPL. Having a link does not prove that SSA supports IPPL. The link is there, nothing more. Now as for me disappearing I DID NOT DISAPPEAR.I've said before if you have questions feel free to ask. You will get honest answers. I am a christian and my statements have to be honest.
You stated on 8/31/00 to Robin that SSA people tried to have your monkeys taken away from you. TRUTHTELLER I would like for you to name these SSA members. On 8/31/00 you stated that the SSA raffled off a quilt at the Primate picnic in Florida and all proceeda goimg to IPPL.
As I remember this event and I'm sure all those who were at this pic nic ther was never a quilt raffled off. As I remember ther was a rug raffled off and the proceeds was donated to the King fund for a new habitat. The SSA had nothing to do with this rug. The rug was donated and the king fund was organized by many privatr primates owners all over the area. You also said that the SSA collcted a lot of monies over 43 years and donated this to these so called org. You said that SSA gets grants. In all of the 43 years the SSA has never received one grant. Now I think I have said enough about what you said.
Now I would like to make a statement to all who might be interested. To the best of my knowledge in the last ten years the SSA has not donated monies to the organizations that truthteller has mention in exceptions of PPI. I was elected President in 1997. Since I have been President there has been no donations to PPI and will not be as long as I am. I want to speak on the new organization. I've known Robin Sloan since 1997. I and my wife met her in St. Louis at Vernel Stock's home . I like Robin and I hope that her organization is a succed and can acheive all their goals. I believe that all primate owners should be organized. We must be to survive the threat of losing our rights to own primates. I'm not against private owners and SSA is not against private owners. Our goals at the beginning in 1957 was for the private owners and still is. I have primates and I will fight to the end to keep them. To all of you private owners please do not believe all tht you hear or read. The SSA is not against you. We are advancing a lot and will continue to work for all and I mean all primates.Thanks for listening. Respectfully John Hall
User Host = jack-dialup-22-229.csj.net

Thank you for responding Mr. Hall although half-truths are not truths by no means. A link to the IPPL website is RIDICULOUS - why link to an organization AGAINST private monkey ownership? There is a relationship between Shirley McGreal (IPPL) and the SSA. It has been a long standing one. There is also a relationship between PETA & the SSA, FACT. Mr. Karen Hawkins (an SSA member/newsletter editor), I believe, raffled off an item at the primate picnic for IPPL. The SSA has done nothing to protect our rights as primate owners - NOTHING. It is a fact, look at their 43 years in existence and look at how the past 10 years have gotten worse and worse for private primate owners. Forget all the arguments, and just look at the reality of the laws in every state, and how many steps back we have taken, how many rights have been taken away from us, where was the SSA? That speaks for itself - so do yourself a favor - let the track record speak for itself and do not CONTRIBUTE to an organization that has aided the banning of primate ownership for 43 years.

User Host = spider-wj022.proxy.aol.com

Forgot to mention. I was a member for 7 years and NEVER received a copy of the bylaws, not in a newsletter, not with the roster, NEVER. So if after 43 years of existence you FINALLY passed your bylaws to your members - you have been in violation of the law for 42 years and members should be outraged they didn't know their rights/powers for 42 years.
User Host = spider-wj022.proxy.aol.com

Robin,
This thread should be removed and I'm sorry to see that it has not. I am ashamed that monkey people are not as intelligent as the primates they claim to love. Where is the troop mentality here? This is nothing but somebody trying dominate and intimidate. Monkey people can fight amongst themselves and ruin it for everyone or pull together for the same cause. If I were an animal rights activist reading this I would be thrilled to see that private primate owners are so foolish. This sort of thing is nothing but ammunition to use against us all.
Even if these unknown people don't agree with everything that the SSA does, what have they done to help fight the bans? I know what the SSA has done and they have made a difference.
Barbara Parker and I have different views on things, but we are entitled to our opinions. We have never bickered or trashed one another in a public forum such as this.
Dori

User Host = spider-wc074.proxy.aol.com

Dori?
For the record the way to stop this thread is to not respond.
I have no way to access this to remove this. I am out of town until mid Sept.
I too, am sorry that it is up here on this BB. I am under no obligation to remove this or anything else on a public forum, yet I do want to remove it and will as soon as I have the capability to do so.
yet, I do wonder, if anyone has thought of this in another way?
1. Am I or anyone with a forum such as this more responsible than the people that are responding on this forum?
2. This could be anyones forum.....because I am a fellow monkey person , does that make me more responsible than the respondees on this forum?
3. Are we sorry that there are questions, and anwsers here or anywhere?
4. The best way to disagree at times is to say nothing, or lack of acknowledgement.
Are we as sorry that this is here as we are that the people are responding?

I do agree, private primate people must united and everyone work together to acomplish what is needed to protect the primate people and all privately owned monkeys.
I will remove this topic as soon as I am able to do so. This topic will not be removed because I agree or disagree, it will be removed because I, personally think that this topic is not beneficial to our quest for the right to be equally, and fairly regulated, responsible private owners of primates.

Robin Sloan
User Host = spider-wc022.proxy.aol.com

Hi Robin,
You can't be held responsible for what others post on the BB. I just don't see where anybody benefits from such mud slinging. It makes us all look childish.
Questions and answers are very appropriate on the BB, but that is not what is going on here. This person is using your BB to vent against the SSA and cause division among us. We must stand together and work for a common goal.
Dori
User Host = spider-tn053.proxy.aol.com

CHILDISH YES>>>>>>> I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT.... BUT AFTER READING HALLS COMMENTS AMD TRUTHTELLER'S, I WOULD HAVE TO SITE WITH TRUTHTELLER'S IN THE ASPECT OF, YES WHERE HAS THE SSA BEEN

IF STATES HAVE BEEN PASSING LAWS OVER THE YEARS ABOUT PRIMATES AND BANNING THEM FROM STATE TO STATE, WHERE IS THE SSA?????

WHY DO ALL OF YOU PAY $$$ TO THEM, WHEN IT IS OVIOUS THAT THEY ARE NOT HELPING PRIMATE OWNERS... IF OVER THE PAST TEN YRS, STATES HAVE BEEN PASSING LAWS AGAINST US AND CONTINUE TO PASS LAWS, WHERE IS THIS SO CALLED "PROTECTOR OF PRIMATES" SSA???????

I BELONG TO NONE OF THESE ORAGNIZATIONS AND WILL BE THE FIRST TO TELL YOU I HAVE NO CLUE ON WHAT THEY DO..... BUT I CAN SEE WITH MY OWN EYES AND IF STATES HAVE BEEN PASSING THESE LAWS AND MORE STATES ARE FALLOWING THEM... THEN WHY HAVEN'T THE SSA PROTECTED US???

WHY BOTHER EVEN HAVING THEM??? SOMEONE IN MY OPINION IS JUST GETTING RICH $$$ OFF OF IT'S MEMBERS.... THINK ABOUT IT....

STATES, LOVE TO FOLLOW CALIF, AND THEY ALL WILL LITTLE BY LITTLE... NEVADA IS NOW TRYING TO PASS A LAW AGAINST EXOTICS TOO... WHERE IS THE SSA?????????? I CAN PROMISE U THIS... ALL STATES WILL SOON FOLOW. SSA IS NOT GONNA STOP ANYONE, FOR LACK OF TRYING I WOULD GUESS... ? IT SEEMS TO ME, MORE AND MORE STATES HAVE BEEN PASSING THESE LAWS AND SSA OR ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION HAS NOT STOPPED THESE STATES...

AS PRIMATE OWNERS, WE MUST DO IT OUR SELF. WRITE TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN ETC... DONT EXPECT SSA TO PROTECT YOU.... IT'S YOUR JOB TO PROTECT YOUR SELF... AND IN MY OPINON IF YOU PAY $$ TO SSA, YOUR A FOOL..

LIKE SOMEONE ELSE SAID, LOOK AT THE TRACK RECORD... ABD IT APPALS ME THAT MR HALL (WHO EVER HE IS) WOULD EVEN STATE "I AM A CHRISTIAN, I HAVE TO TELL THE TRUTH"... THAT IS APPALING... BEING IN LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR 12 YRS, THAT STATEMENT, WOULD TIP OFF ANY GOOD COP.

WHY WOULD ANYONE EVEN STATE THAT??? UNLESS THEY WERE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT SOMETHING... LIKE EVERY KILLER SAYS, "TO TELL U THE TRUTH, I DIDN'T DO IT"...

WE SHOULD EXPECT NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH AND WHEN SOMEONE ADDS THAT TO THEIR STATEMENT, IT USUALLY MEANS THEY ARE LYING. THINK ABOUT IT...

ALSO WHEN THEY STATE (AS MR HALL DID ABOVE) "TO MY KNOWLEDGE" THAT IS A POLITICTIANS WAY OF KEEPING HIS BUTT OUT OF A SLING... ANOTHER WORDS THEY ARE LYING... HONESTLY IF ANY PRESIDENT SAID " TO MY KNOWLEDGE WE DIDN'T SELL ANY ARMS TO THE IRAQ'S) WOULD YOU BELEIVE THEM NO... AND YOU KNOW YOU WOULD NOT... WHY, CAUSE YOU KNOW THAT WHEN THEY SAY THAT " TO MY KNOWELDGE" YOU KNOW THEY ARE LYING.

SO WHY BELEIVE THIS MR HALL??? BEING TRAINED TO LISTEN TO STATEMENTS FOR 12 YRS, YOU CAN TELL WHEN SOMEONE IS HOLDING BACK THE TRUTH.
I CAN TELL U THIS, MR HALL IS...

I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST SSA AND DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY DO, BUT I CAN SEE FROM THESE LAWS GETTING PASSED MORE AND MORE, THAT SSA IS FALLING A SLEEP.. GETTING RICH TOO, I MIGHT ADD.....

MARK
User Host = spider-wa023.proxy.aol.com

First and foremost, I think these posting are childish and not necessary. Why all the bashing on IPPL? You people only want to see
the negative of them (i.e. anti private ownership.) I have spoken with Ms. McGreal via telephone and email. She is a lovely woman who is very kind and truly cares for the world's primates. I own monkeys, and she is well aware of that. I have sent her pics of my compounds, and her reply? "Elizabeth, it is wonderful to see such as nice enclosure for your monkeys. I do hope they are not breeding though. Again, thank you for the pictures, and keep up the great and
caring work you are doing for primates. Your membership with IPPL has
been extended for another year. Thank you."

I will let that speak for itself. I have since received Holiday cards from her and the IPPL staff. I have been thrilled to visit the IPPL Gibbon sanctuary at the yearly fall meeting. IPPL CARES about primates. What they are against is the people who go out and purchase monkeys and apes as pets without knowing beans about them or how they should be fed, housed, or generally taken care of. And yes, they are against pulling babies from their natural mothers for obvious reasons. I don't know how many of you have actually witnessed this, but it is horrific to say the least. Some breeders just pull the babies, some "knock out" the monkeys to retrieve the babies, it just depends on the breeder. My first monkey I purchased from a breeder who hit the mother and grabbed the baby from her while hers and babies screams frightened the others. I had no idea. I neverbought another. The others I have adopted from breeders who no longer needed them, and from private owners. Most of my monkeys are ex-breeders and therefore not tame. Yet, after months of living with me, I can at least feed them by hand, and sometimes they will tolerate being touched or groomed by me.

Just remember that there are 2 sides to everything. You may not necessarily believe in everything that IPPL stand for, but the fact remains that they do commend those private individuals who provide a good home for pet primates, and that they are at the forefront of fighting the awful overseas illegal trade and bushmeat trade that are both cruel and intolerable.

User Host = 03-148.032.popsite.net

No one is saying the IPPL is bad, just that it is anti-pet monkey ownership and it is wrong that a PET primate organization (so they claim to be) called the SSA work with an ANTI-pet primate organization. It is a FACT that IPPL worked against Cookie's owner and claimed she should be taken away from a LOVING, DEDICATED home. The IPPL serves a purpose but not as a pet primate organization nor should a pet primate organization work with an organization that works AGAINST what they stand for.

I am sure Ms. McGreal is a nice woman, no one debated that or slandering her. The issue is why is the SSA involved with something that works against us? How could the SSA justify working with someone who is publicly campaigning to take away a loved, cared for monkey from a family? Please don't use the endangered species excuse because Cookie is spayed and not able to reproduce - so there is no issue of keeping the species alive.
User Host = spider-tj023.proxy.aol.com

IPPL is NOT a Pet Primate organization and never claims to be. The SSA is supported by IPPL due to the wonderful publication they have on primate species and care. IPPL does not endorse the pet primate trade but DOES support people who are able to provide experienced homes for monkeys. And for those people who felt the need to contact IPPL for info, were directed to SSA for the Primate Care Handbook.

Beth
User Host = atlantis.onlinedirectinc.com

As the Director of a primate related 501(c)(3) I thought I would interject a few facts, which truthteller may be unaware of:

1. Any 501(c)(3) non-profit must provide public inspection of all documents related to the application for exemption, including (but not limited to) supporting documents (of which the charity bylaws are one) as well as any letter or other document issued by the IRS with regard to the application. According to IRS documents (Form 1023 & instructions) "information relating to a trade secret, patent, style of work, or apparatus that, if release, would adversely affect the organization, or any other information that would adversely affect the national defense, will not be made available for public inspection".

The document goes on to state that "The organization must make available for public inspection a copy of its approved application and supporting documents, along with any document or letter issued by the IRS. These must be available during regular business house at the organization's principle office and at each of its regional or district offices having at least three paid employees."

Further, a 501(c)(3) organization must provide copies of "its three most recent annual information returns."

IRS News Release IR-1999-53 states, in part, "...An alternative to providing copies is for the organization to make documents available on a Web site, either its own or another organizations's. It may then advise requesters how to access the forms on the Web. "

The long and the short of it is that, as far as I am aware, the SSA or any other 501(c)(3) organization does not have to supply its members with copies of bylaws, unless requested to do so in writing or in person, at the headquarters of the organization. Further, a 501(c)(3) may appeal to the IRS should they deem such requests as harassment.

Most organizations provide such information as a matter of course, but you seem to be stuck on the legality of the issue. I would suggest that you contact the IRS @ 1.877.829.5500.

Of course, there are also state laws that non-profit organizations (even those that are not 501(c)(3) determined) must follow. Each state is different and it would be up to the SSA Board to determine what their state of incorporation requires.

2. As a Member of IPPL for a great many years (as well as the fact that Dr. Shirley McGreal is on our Advisory Board) I do believe I am qualified to state that although IPPL does not support private ownership (for obvious reasons) they, like us, do support people who already own primates - in that we offer help, advise and support if and when the owner needs it. It's a bit late to chastise someone for a purchase they have already made, truthteller. Although, in our case, this attitude does not win our organization any friends (note our stance on PJ, the capuchin monkey living in Seattle), it does make a difference in the lives of animals who have been purchased by individuals who do not know anything about primates, and/or those who do not have the resources they need to care for primates properly. IPPL & PCWS aren't about hurting pet monkey owners - we're about helping primates. There is a difference, and one that you obviously are unwilling or unable to see or make a connection to.

3. I will not presume to speak for IPPL here, but will offer some brief comments about Cookie. Cookie was being fed ice cream (among other things) and was living in a parrot cage at one time. It is my opinion that her owners used her as a status symbol, and had little regard for appropriate care. PCWS supported IPPL and the many other organizations that worked on that case, and will continue to fight for primates, like Gilligan and Cookie, who are abused and neglected. Further, removing the ovaries of such an animal is, in my opinion, animal abuse. That monkey was less that 24 months old - and whomever told the owners that they should move forward with such a thing did not only Cookie, but the owners and the species as a whole, a great disservice. Further, it -is- relevant that this animal was a highly endangered species. What if this animal had been a Miss Waldron's Red Colobus, truthteller? It is incredibly important that these animals are not imported from the wild and sold into the pet trade - in fact it is vital in my view. And in case you are going to argue the subject, as so many private owners do, the illegal importation of non-human primates happens almost every day. Even great apes, such as the infant chimpanzee recently caught at JFK, occur. And it is the responsibility of everyone to make sure that non-human primates, whenever possible, remain in their habitat countries, with their mothers and families.

4. Although PCWS does not support the private ownership of primates (in almost every case), we do support the efforts of the SSA to educate owners and to offer them informed materials regarding primate care. They should be commended for such work - having been actively working in this arena for over ten years, I know first hand that many hundreds of animals would be in very poor shape if it were not for the SSA materials. $35.00 seems to me to be a very small price to pay for the long-term welfare of any primate. And to be blunt, if an owner cannot afford the $35.00, then they have no business whatsoever in owning such an animal.

5. truthteller - on 31/8/2000 you asked why the SSA had not, in the 43 years since its inception, pushed for legislation that was in support of private ownership. It is my view (from the outside of the organization) that the reason they have not is that until recently no such legislation was in place. And in the small communities where it was an issue, very few if any SSA members kept primates. It would seem to me, that up until recently, such efforts would be a waste of their funding - funding you seem so deeply concerned about.

6. It should be noted that in those places that a ban or tough legislation has been put into place, there have been numerous accounts of humans attacked, bitten and otherwise harmed by non-human primates. Although you may have a wonderful relationship with your individual monkey, on the whole, non-human primates do not make good pets. And laws are placed, on the whole, to protect the majority of the public and the majority of the animals. At PCWS we are not at all concerned about your "right" to have a primate. We care about the primates involved. For every case that you could show me where a monkey has been properly cared for by an owner over its 20-40 year lifespan, I can show you hundreds of cases where these animals are neglected, abused, beaten and otherwise mistreated. Do you really believe that your own desires should be elevated above the hundreds of thousands of animals who are dying or have died because they entered the pet trade?

7. Since you are not a member of the SSA truthteller (according to your post on 03/09/2000) then I am unclear about your agenda with regard to SSA funds and to whom they are donated. Here at PCWS we have a Board of Directors and an Advisory Board which overseas our granting process. I imagine that the SSA has some sort of internal regulatory process as well. If the SSA choose to donate funds to the man on the moon, as long as it was sanctioned by their Board and was within their determined charter, you have nothing whatever to say about it since you aren't a member. Complaining about it here makes you appear to be nothing but a disgruntled owner out to find someone to blame for your personal problems -- even if that may not be the case.

Regards,
Hope Walker
Executive Director
The Primate Conservation & Welfare Society
http://www.primates-online.com

User Host = dialup72.waypt.com